Prospectors got it wrong - says the Minister - and pigs fly

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/business/a/26192205/fees-showdown-for-prospectors/

Well that's a pretty good result in my book. 0.25Ha (2500m2) is plenty of room for my mining proposal, at least I won't have to pay the $7000

thats 2 & 1/2 large house blocks---mmmm

i think i like the idea of 10ha at 2"..scrape and detect.

regards
oneday

Tkinggold wrote:Well that's a pretty good result in my book.  0.25Ha (2500m2) is plenty of room for my mining proposal, at least I won't have to pay the $7000

TK,

I've been up to my eyes in the thick of this lot since last July. If what you are proposing is a Mining Operation, you will need a Mining Proposal - cost 7000 bucks. You will have to show how your operation is NOT a Mining Proposal. There's a lot that they will consider.

For instance, are you sinking a shaft? Are you jackhammering out a reef? If so, you'll need about $20k worth of safety gear, approved winches, a haul road, a treatment plant. I found out only recently that if a person takes his car, caravan, crusher, trailer etc into his mining tenement but treats ONSITE any ore that he finds, then he won't need a Miscellaneous Licence to go back & forth.

But if he removes ore from the ground and ships it out to treat OFFSITE from the point of the operation, he will need to apply for a Miscellaneous Licence! That applies even if he's only using a 6 by 4 trailer for the dirt! That track has suddenly become a haul road!

This is the sort of crap that these DMP enviros are slinging at us.

Plus, I reckon you'd be battling to keep your "environmental footorint" under 0.25 hectares even for a small operation. That area includes the spot where you park yer van, where you park yer crusher, yer generator, yer toilet etc. But cop this, that "0.25 hectare" also includes any track that you make when accessing your "0.25 hectares operational area". So if you are not using existing tracks - there's yer total area almost gone and you haven't moved a rock yet?

"0.25 hectare" is 2500 square metres. The old Australian dream of a 1/4 acre house block is 1200 sq metres. So think about the total area of what I've described above and then have a cry in the corner.

I wouldn't be jumping for joy just yet.

oneday wrote:thats 2 & 1/2 large house blocks---mmmm

i think i like the idea of 10ha at 2"..scrape  and detect.

regards
oneday

Ray,

In a 'scrape & detect" operation, one really needs to know how the area vs the tonnage is intertwined. If you were to take your example above -

10 hectares is 100,000 sq mtrs. So now we need to get the tonnage figure. A Mining Registrar will only issue "Extended Tonnage" up to a maximum limit of "5000 tonnes" for the total life of the tenement. That's not for EACH operation, it's for "life". You can get more by applying to the Minister but you better have a good reason, a bloody good reason and it takes forever.

So moving along. "two inches" of depth is 50mm - or 0.05 mtr. OK?

Multiply 100,000 sq mtrs by 0.05 depth and you get 5000 cubic mtrs. OK?

Now apply the mandatory "bulking figure" recommended by the DMP - "1.8"-  and you'll find that the tonnage you are proposing to move is now 5000
cubic mtrs weighing 1.8 tonnes per mtr =  9000 tonnes.

Your are buggered.

Try scrape & detect at "one inch" and you may get away with it.

But who'd wanna pay the float costs, the dozer cost etc to do that!!

Now do that same calculation at the lowly figure of "0.25 hectares" and you can see that even a little dozer can push the allowable tonnage in half a day! No point is there if you're doing to make a quid? Sure it'll take two days to chain out that small area "properly". And what do we do then? Apply for another piss ant little "0.25 hectare" and wait another 30 days (min) to get that passed? I'll wait for ya in the bar at the "KI" shall I?

HTH

0.25ha = 2500 sq metres
50 metres x 50 metres = 2500 sq metres.
get out your tape measure and check it out. it's not a big area for what you guys do.

Wedgetail wrote:

Tkinggold wrote:Well that's a pretty good result in my book.  0.25Ha (2500m2) is plenty of room for my mining proposal, at least I won't have to pay the $7000

TK,

I've been up to my eyes in the thick of this lot since last July. If what you are proposing is a Mining Operation, you will need a Mining Proposal - cost 7000 bucks. You will have to show how your operation is NOT a Mining Proposal. There's a lot that they will consider.

Why will I have to show that my operation is 'not' a mining proposal? The minister said that it only relates to mining proposal over 0.25Ha, therefor you can have a mining proposal less then 0.25Ha and not pay the new $7000 fee.

As I already stated 2500m2 is enough room for me to work my current proposal. And I am fully aware that this includes the ground taken up by stockpile, processing plant and other on site facilities.
My processing plant footprint is only approx 15x5m = 75m2 Excavation surface area is 20x4m = 80m2. This still leaves 2348m2 for my stockpile and moving room to work, which is plenty.
There are existing tracks so this is not a problem.

I am also aware of the safety requirements, I ran my own drilling and construction business with 25 employees before I started prospecting, safe work procedures and quality management have been around for many years now and are easy to implement once you know how.

As far as Rays question about the 10Ha SPLs was concerned, the 0.25Ha limit has nothing to do with this. He will still just submit a standard POW as before when only doing a scrape and detect or dryblowing. You do not require a mining proposal for this so can work which ever areas you want without the 0.25Ha restriction.
Gold is hardly ever scattered over the entire 10Ha so I don't understand why you bother calculating to scrape the entire surface area, just scrape where the runs of gold are and then you can go deeper then 1".

Hi Trent

we found gold on the surface and we found gold at 3m..this area is SPECIAL--

everywhere we took surface samples we had gold in the pan...we sank the backhoe down in a small water runnoff area and found gold in the gravels.

just gotta work out whether its viable to move 3m of top soil.

shes a bit different to what u r doing...but interesting.

regards
oneday

oneday wrote:Hi Trent

we found gold on the surface and we found gold at 3m..this area is SPECIAL--

everywhere we took surface samples we had gold in the pan...we sank the backhoe down in a small water runnoff area and found gold in the gravels.

just gotta work out whether its viable to move 3m of top soil.

shes a bit different to what u r doing...but interesting.

regards
oneday

Yeh mate I understand you can get some gold in a wide variety of area, but some gold does not always equal payable gold.
There would have to big nuggets or a large concentration of fines for me to bother moving 3m of overburden. Possibly better of doing several costeans first to check it before scraping?
That's why I prefer hard rock mate, couldn't be bothered moving hundreds or thousands of tons for a few ounces then having to go peg a new area and go through all the same bull* again. Heaps easier to chase high grade, small tonnage and stay on the same lease for longer.

Good luck with it this year, you got a trommel sorted out yet?

",,,,As far as Rays question about the 10Ha SPLs was concerned, the 0.25Ha limit has nothing to do with this. He will still just submit a standard POW as before when only doing a scrape and detect or dryblowing. You do not require a mining proposal for this so can work which ever areas you want without the 0.25Ha restriction.

Points to consider - Any POW application greater than 0.25 hectares attracts the fee or $590.00.

Next - it is not allowable to have a POW application passed for a surface area of more than 5 hectares per application So there's TWO lots of $590.00 for each POW application, to enable Ray to do the whole 10 hectares. (It is also not allowed to have more than 2.0 hectares "open" at any one time.)

Thirdly, ask anyone that's done a few "scrape and detect" jobs and it will be found that "chasing the run of gold" over an area is common practice. Similarly, a tenement holder can have many POW applications over the 8 years of a tenement whilst he's trying to prove up the tenement. He could go from reefing to scrape and detect, to augur drilling, to RAB drilling, to RC drilling, to diamond core etc. Each and every one of these would trigger a POW application and just one drill pad is about 0.1 hectare PLUS the driller's clearing a track in to the drill pad. So ONE single drill hole with track and there's the whole 0.25 hectare GONE. A full drill programme across a PL could easily trigger 50 tracks, 50 drill pads at different times depending on the drill results. That's 100 times $590.00.

You're fortunate that you don't have problems with this new fee. But there are many that do. That's who I'm concerned about besides my own business. This time it's us - next time it could be you.

Ask the 50 year experienced guys in Kal about these new fees and they'll rip off anyone's head that's game to ask the question. They are ropeable, as I am. We're getting hit with fees for exploration, searching and it's us that's taking all the risks that entails. Whilst a company that's running a mine or opening up a new area are hit with albeit, a bigger fee,,,,,,,,,,,but they're making money. Exploration COSTS money, production MAKES money.

Who knows, the DMP may well put a fee (another one!) on production in the future. Then where would we be?

Support APLA in fighting ANY new fees!

Might have to take a trip down to Judds to see whats happening with that gear..shouldnt be to hard to find

regards
oneday

I might get my head bitten off here but can I suggest, if we are not careful, we might end up like areas in the east where you are restricted to fossicking ground.
At the mo, we can basically go were we like with the correct permits, permissions or on pending and VCL ground.
I don't trust this current bunch of clowns running WA and I wonder if APLA has considered setting up a fighting fund where members can donate a small sum of money on top of their membership fees.
Think about it. Otherwise you might find you have a lot of expensive gear and nowhere to use it.

the minister isnt saying u cant go here there and every where--he is simply introducing a new tax on the gold industry.--simple---thats what all governments like doing--once introduced then they raise them over time--look at regos of vehicles..trucks--$18k for 12months--my humble troopy $700..it doesnt end..

what happened to the mining tax--so introduce a untertakers tax..

these idiots havent learnt anything from the backlash of the Qld elections..

regards
oneday

Ray, you are missing my point.  If they get away with this, you can bet ya bottom dollar it won't end there.
Barnetts circus don't want small players in the game, they don't gain financially (forget about these new fees) from having them there.
Think about the whole picture, not just ya little deals for yourself.
It has always been about handing it over to big business, it's their ideology.
And here's something that seems to have been missed by all West Aussies which demonstrates my point.
The Water Corp is a government owned utility but they have just announced they are selling off their engineering side. The Water Corp is owned by the West Australian people, not the government of the day.  Were we consulted about it, NO.  So once again, you can bet ya bottom dollar, there must be plans to sell off the Water Corp also.  If that happens, look out.
If my memory is correct, they did it in Chile or maybe Peru and all hell broke loose as the price of water went thru the roof, people couldn't afford to buy water but at least the people there had the courage to front their government and got it changed.
Once the wedge is in, try removing it.  It either gets stopped now or we just spend a lot of time sitting around whingeing about it.

What this means is the minister got some heat from somewhere, probably some of his colleagues who were copping it from the electorate. So he tosses out some scraps as appeasement. No way should we accept it, if anything the heat should be cxranked up another couple of notches.
As Biggnugs and others have said, this is only a tiny little skirmish in the long term war.
Does this token appeasment mean that some pow's are done for free and others are done for $600? Do the freebies get a lesser scrutiny than the $600 ones?

Orwell said it best with
All animals are equal but some are more equal than others
This minister showed his true feelings by describing prospectors as "overreacting"
Contempt for we mere vote creatures is nothing new from a pollie in fact it is what you expect. We exist to be taxed and told how to live,eat,shite and die but only when told.
This minister and all pollies forget the lessons of the Boston Tea Party and The Eureka Stockade, actually on reflection they don't forget, they hope we do!

what ever is required I'm prepaired to fight.

I think my first attempt will be to fly the eureka flags in a couple of dominant positions.

gotta start somewere..then attract the media --

regards
oneday

time to drop into mineral house for chat I think

im with ya, even i can see the implications with this tax and I know that once introduced look out with increases and expansions. if i wasn't so flat out getting this house ready for rental i would have been in there already Tom. dosnt matter how long you have been in mining or how much you know just voice your opposition and let them know we still want to have access to OUR land now for our kids and not have to pay the man everytime we dig a hole. whats next a tax on every detector hole we dig?
so something needs to happen and how many are just talkers or who walks the talk?
we have 900 odd members if half of us turn up at mineral house then we cant be ignored. must get permits to protest from the police and stipulate approx numbers route intended to be marched and issues to address and get the media and pf course APLA onboard etc.

whos in?

It's very easy to sound like a nut case here....and I'm not...at least that's what I tell myself repeatedly.

I have said this before, these new fee's are only part of a much larger plan.

One of the keys to their plan is the definition of "low impact".

Minister Marmion has been quoted as "....... a further legislative amendment that has been proposed is to introduce
a notification process for low impact activities-for prospecting, exploration or mining..."

He then goes on to say "Given the definition of what constitutes low impact activities has not yet been finalised......."

So this is possibly where it will effect you. Currently, metal detection is catered for under the mining act in the form
of "hand held tools" There are legislative changes that are proposed that will redefine what is considered "low impact"
and if metal detectors are caught up in these changes, you could see yourself being forced to report your intended activities
and require approval from the DMP enviro division. It's not too long a bow to draw to guess that if metal detector operators
are then regulated through the DMP environmental division, why would they really need a MINERS RIGHT?? If they have changed the definition and control measures for something like metal detectors then they don't need the existing control measures.

What I am saying is simple. This set of new fee's in reality probably doesn't effect prospectors that do so as a hobby. However,
if you don't think bigger changes are afoot then you are not reading the signs. This fight WILL be about the hobby detectorist
that wants to go bush, get away from the city and find a few bits. This fight will eventually be about weather or not your kids
and their kids can one day be involved in this great passtime. This may not directly effect you now but if you don't stand up
it will, I believe, effect you very very soon.

Tkinggold. I don't know your operation mate, but if you can get away with the .25ha, that's great. But if your tonnage get's
too high or your excavation's too deep then the chances are you will be forced to convert your lease to an M. That will
cost you close to 7 grand under the proposal. Remember that it is the environmental division that controls what you can
and can't do.

Minister for DMP email address, drop him a line or two. The more emails sent the better so pass the word.

Minister.Marmion@dpc.wa.gov.au

yep an email bomb campaign is great BUT emails are easy to ignore, i have sent literally hundreds to health ministers and the premier. one thing i learned is they wont even open it unless it is address correctly ie "the Honourable Bill Marmion BE MBA MLA" then you must include your full name and contact details, then address your issue. get any part of the letter format wrong and they trash it.

here is a guide, a reminder, incorrectly addressed letters wont be conciderd

https://www.oxfam.org.au/act/diy-campaigning/make-your-mp-work-for-you/writing-to-your-mp/

and

https://www.efa.org.au/Campaigns/lobby.html

cheers

Martinjsto is correct, don't waste time emailing the Minister, contact your MP's instead. They are easier to contact and they have the inside running to dealing with the ministers gatekeepers. Also they are paid to represent the people so make thyem earn a tiny bit of their keep.

leonora/kalgoorlie is rick wilson
Rick.Wilson.MP@aph.gov.au