Electric Jackhammers

First topic message reminder :

Now this will probably open up a can of worms but might be worth investigating.  After watching madmav and bluedog digging last weekend and seeing some Utube clips of guys with hammer and chisel, it got me thinking about the title of this topic.

Electric hand hammerdrills or small jackhammers are called "Hand Held" tools.  The WA DMP rules for Prospecting also state "Handheld".

Cat, I know you will jump in here and that's good.  I'd like to know what the "True" definition of handheld is under the WA Mining Act.  I think I might send an email to DMP for their interpretation.

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It's a very confusing subject what I have found out over the last year after hours on the phone and many many trips into the dmp office is I spoke to jeff hayles from kalgoorlie dmp about regulations for dryblowing was making some wanted to know weather they were legal eg, hand crank,battery or petrol powered.
This is what he got back to me with after reading through mining act's
" u may use any hand held tool weather it be manual or  powered driven as long as u can physically pick it up and move it for the purpose of prospecting on any lease u have permission to be on,any pending leases, or any free ground u may be looking to peg but u can not on a 40e".
I asked if there was any literature on this he said its in the way it's worded in the act's has been asked this many times and said he will back this up.
I know this doesn't clarify anything on paper but just what I have found out.
Cheers Digdog

Digdog,
That's awesome news, thanks.
The jackhammer will surely be getting a work out this coming season.
RW

Hi Digdog
its as good as the paper its written on--the trouble is the law is a bitch and it can b interpreted in many ways and u certainly need legal advice on the interpretation especially from a mining lawyer  there are a couple of good ones around but there are quiet a few who think they r good. theres the difference.
let us know how u go..

befor u can chop up the ground there are still a few hurdles to jump

regards
oneday

I contacted a man well known to us and respected by many people in WA.  I won't say who he is but he put the same question to DMP about powered tools.
In a nutshell, if the ground you are walking and working with a Miners Right is vacant crown land then you can use powered tools, eg. battery powered hammer drill or small jack hammer.
If the ground is covered by a 40E then it's a no go.
so it appears, pending ground or ground not covered by any type of mining lease is fair game.

Here's the email conversation with the gentlemans name deleted.

Cliff,

as far as I can understand yes, the tools that were mentioned can be used on crown land not subject to any other lease like and E, but not on Section 40e tenements that you have a applied for a permit to prospect upon

REgards
B

-----Original Message-----
From: Cliff
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 3:25 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Use of Hand Held Tools

Hi B,

Thanks for this.  It's amazing how 2 different people at DMP can give 2 different interpretations of the Mining Act.  They told me outright, "no power tools".

If I am reading correctly the response you got, they can be used on crown land.  Have I got that right.

Regards
Cliff





-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Sunday, 15 December 2013 2:52 PM
To: Cliff
Cc:
Subject: Use of Hand Held Tools



HI CLiff

unfortunately I cant give you the original email because it was submitted on a form on the DPM website  but it was along the lines of whether

you can use hand held tools like Shaw Portable backpack drill etc under the new regulations in the hope that it could be defined.


That’s all I can offer sorry
Reards
B





"Dear Mr

I refer to your email query of 15 February 2013 regarding prospecting using
hand held equipment.

Regulation 4O of the Mining Regulations 1981 states


“4O. (1) A permit holder is not to use powered or hydraulically driven hand
tools on the land the subject of the permit”.  A permit referred to here is
one  issued after application is made under Section 40E of the act to enable
prospecting on a granted Exploration Licence.

Under Regulation 4O the equipment referred to in your email such as  a “Shaw
portable Backpack drill or cordless 36 volt rotary hammer drills or a 4
stroke hand held jack hammer” cannot be used under a Section 40E Permit.

Under Section 40D (2)(b) of the Mining Act 1978 when using a Miner’s Right
on Vacant Crown Land you must not use explosives or tools, other than tools
prescribed for the purposes of this paragraph or hand tools. As tools have
not been prescribed for this purpose the hand tools you described in your
email can be used.

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact ?
? of this office on the telephone number below.

Regards



P V





Manager, Mining Information Counter

Tenure & Native Title Branch

Mineral Titles Division

DEPT OF MINES AND PETROLEUM

100 Plain Street, East Perth, Western Australia 6004

Tel: +61 8 9222 3111 Fax: +61 8 9222 3444


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------------------------------
Your First Name*: Cliff
E-Mail Address:
Your Message: Hi B,
Just read this on one of your newsletters.
"Using Hand Held or Hydraulically Driven Machinery.
We were curious to see if the use of hand held equipment had changed in any
way and just what constitutes a hydraulically driven hand tools so we wrote
to the Dept Mines and Petroleum about it, here is there reply.
“I refer to your email query of 15 February 2013 regarding prospecting using
hand held equipment.
Regulation 4O of the Mining Regulations 1981 states-
“4O. (1) A permit holder is not to use powered or hydraulically driven hand
tools on the land the subject of the permit”. A permit referred to here is
one issued after application is made under Section 40E of the act to enable
prospecting on a granted Exploration Licence.
Under Regulation 4O the equipment referred to in your email such as a “Shaw
portable Backpack drill or cordless 36 volt rotary hammer drills or a 4
stroke hand held jack hammer” cannot be used under a Section 40E Permit.
Under Section 40D (2)(b) of the Mining Act 1978 when using a Miner’s Right
on Vacant Crown Land you must not use explosives or tools, other than tools
prescribed for the purposes of this paragraph or hand tools. As tools have
not been prescribed for this purpose the hand tools you described in your
email can be used.”
Very Interesting.
I've been trying to get a decent answer from DMP myself.  I can understand
the now powered tools if you are using a 40E permit but I'm talking vacant
crown land and the answer I get is the same, "no powered tools".
What's your opinion about a handymans hammer drill with a masonry bit
attached. And do you think holders of Miners Rights should be allowed to use
small powered tools to get samples.
Any chance I could get to read the email you sent to DMP ?
I know I'm asking a lot but this subject seems to me that DMP are having a
bob each way to stop us.
Cheers
Cliff

------------------------------

Best regards,

Well stuff it guys, excuse my late nite jack daniels affected comment , but in my opinion . "powered tools". is a matter of whatever....petrol,diesel, or simply "muscle driven", my own arms are a source of power albeit a very weak source of power, never the less a source of power. interperate that in the fine print. we all know there is a lot, a hell of a lot of unfilled holes/shafts around the state and its a shame to fill in a hole one has spent possibly days digging to not much avail. if ya gonna dig a hole with power tools the rule would surely apply,FILL IT IN , COVER ya TRACKS a hard thing to do after so much effort, easy to kick a buckets worth of dirt back in but not so should you have a real good crack. I still have "hopefully" a hole or two still open when I return to them.
If some one has found them and gone deeper, well good on em, that means I was on to something maybe, its the law of the jungle baby , always has been , always will be, and that's just the way I like it.

RW
I was not saying that's the law go for gold as oneday said it can be interpreted so many ways. This is just what I have found out from one person before I will go getting all excited would be good to have a legal document in the hand, think that will be a long time away and a shite load of hoops to jump through
Cheers digdog

Digdog,
Yeah fair enough, I have the lines blurred between my fantasy and someone elses reality.
I reckon what it comes down to which is just my opinion. And on further thinking.
Is that if the DMP openly stated that we can use electric or petrol powered jackhammers, as prospectors, that there would be so many larger holes left behind unfilled that it would be simply impossible for the DMP to police, and also hard to find who actually had dug the holes and left them in such a way, most of us occasionally come across unfilled diggings. If and when I return to my patch and found someone else had been there and dug a metre deep hole and left it open I myself will have to fill it in or be blamed for it, threatening the action of my 5k bond scenario. maybe.
RW

RW,
Let's be honest here, how many signals have you, I or many other prospectors out there detected and walked away because the ground was to hard to dig?
Would wear my finger nails down to the quick if need be to get to a target, would never walk away.
We would use what ever we could lay our hands on to smash our way down to the target knowing full well it wouldn't be a bit of lead or a discarded bit of ferrous from the early days.

Yep,
Honestly walked away from a few, and as I have stated on this very thread I still have a couple of open holes yet to finish. guilty as charged. Wearing my fingers down to the bone is not my idea of fun , Prefer to work smart not hard but sometimes a bit of both. Depends on how thirsty im getting and what time of day it is.
RW

not in to time when im on break myself roger , any times a good time for a stubby these days mate .specialy if you are down 400 mm & the detector is screaming a wide sound in solid cap   .... & an 18 ouncer comes out in the morning ,( aint that right ol codger )  

one can only dream

regards
oneday

That as usual with me was some time back , doesn't matter , still applies , codger had a 2100 & id just got a 2200 & we found a virgin area , Murchison , got most & kept returning now n then to do it  properly &  working the edges , deeper ground more slowly with 18 monos , anyway as I returned to camp I saw him in the same spot swinging slowly from several directions , the area was noisy all round , but good on him , he got the extra little bit of noise that pulled him up . good skills mate , albo.
Ar sorry got sidetracked , yep the stubbies took over that day & it was a bonus too as it was 11/11,rememberance day , forgot the year & he was a sapper, ex soldier too ,great times ,albo.

Too right there Albo.
This is one scenario I have.
I have a pending lease which im expected to be granted very soon, lets say before Easter.
There is a very shallow shaft on it that is screaming a signal at the bottom of it. this hole is only about chest high when standing in the bottom of it. so i have started diggin , cleaned out a couple of shrubs growing in it and all the other
dirt that has eroded back in down to some solid blue/green looking rock, even swept the floor etc to make sure the signal is not small iron crap etc. Then proceeded to try and chip away with cold chisel and stumpy hammer, and quickly realised that there has to be an easier way to get at the signal provider. By now it looks like I dug the whole thing myself as there is fresh dirt all around the top of hole. After taking a break and wetting my thirst , to contemplate things. I reckon this hole was started before there was detectors so the original prospector gave up on it as I too have not found a grain in it yet. Old timer may have got a bit then gone .Its bloody hard rock !!. Quite possible its could be copper as an expl company has recently been drilling some good Cu results in the area. The dream is still alive and I will return better prepared.
Makin me thirsty again just thinkin bout it.
Cheers
RW

sounds really great roger ,some of those small surface leaders can pinch out & continue again with a metre or so between ... find someone with a backhoe ,do a deal & open the thing up mate , all done in a day & refill it .

Albo,
Yeah was thinkin along those lines, but I will have to wait till im "granted" then put in an application for a POW-P "I think", then wait another 12 months for that to be approved. Lots of big stones on the block too so will try for a "scrape and detect" permit, as forum member CAT has advised me on, thankfully. And yes I do always eventually fill my holes.
Also just wondering what is the time frame a hole must be filled in by, or is that another can of worms too ?
RW

YOUR APPLICATION FOR a pow-p doesnt take very long to get permission.
i would also take a sample of a 20L bucket of dirt and pan it out.
see if there is fines in the dirt.

u can leave a excavation so long as your permit is valid.

regards
oneday

Thanks oneday,
That's encouraging.
RW