Tyres & Rims

In another topic we got "off topic" with this subject but it's an interesting topic and I think we have talked about it before but it don't matter. I can only say, after spending 20 years in the transport and earthmoving game and changing truck tyres with split rims and on my old nissan & tojo, I'll take split rims anyday if I'm out in the scrub.
Some say they are dangerous, that's coz they don't hammer the locking rim down good while inflating.
Anyway, just my opinion.

Hi Cliff,

I have been using splits & rags for years on my troopy & it's only in the last few years I've gone over to tubless tyres & rims mainly because with tyre technology improvements & puncture repairs on tubeless tyres, the process of changing a tubeless tyre (or repairing punctures) is no problem for me.
A lot of the causes of punctures is speed & tyre pressure over the surface you are driving!!!!
My opinion only.

Cheers

Ted

After several years of struggle changing/repairing those rigid 8ply Olympics on the old series 3 Landy what a joy when we bought the '85 L/C trayback with split rims and flexible radial tyres.
A bloke can imagine the agony that Len Beadell with his Landy went through, often repairing several a day with a hand pump to inflate.
These days I carry 4 spares, 2 on the truck, 2 on the van, 7.50x16 L/C splits all round. Add couple of spare tubes and flats are something I can readily cope with.
Even though my Disco runs nicely with tubeless radials on ally wheels, splits are the only ones I would venture bush with.
Mike

Splits are not for everyone but if u go of the beaten track like some of us lost souls in the pilbara then 14ply tyres are a minimum..

regards
oneday

I'm still getting car,trailor and other gear together.
I do have most sorted, but I have been going in circles trying to make a decision on tyres and rims. One thought is BFG 235x85r16 on 6 or 7 inch steel rim. But the idea of split rims seems to keep haunting me.
Does anyone have a preference of thicker side walled trye for steel rims ?. The rig is a GQ trayback.
Any suggestions much appreciated.
And I will most likely be going into some gnarly places once i have a handle on tenegraph, Geo map etc.
Cheers Neil.

Hi All,

My thoughts, i used to run wide tubeless tires and i was forever fixing flat tires!!!, it makes sense where there is more contact with the ground there is going to be more chances of getting a puncture

Split rims... easier to repair properly(not whacking a plug in)and if its skinnier in profile = less punctures, simple really!!!!

I would run them at 50-60psi, my idea was to keep them pointy!!!,no pinching or trying to make the tyre wider

You will still get punctures but thats life!!

If i was really off roadin i would carry spare worn

tyres that could be changed onto the split rims, nothin fancy just bush bashers, depended how long i was going to spend out bush

Ron

Neil.
For over 20yrs. I have used Dunlop Roadgripper F on the L/C traybacks (tyres they come new with)
These are rated 8 ply, normally run about 55psi and my main puncture situation (seldom) has been (burnt) gidgea stakes through the lower sidewall.
They are skinny (750x16") with good shoulder tread so do well on typical breakaway rock climbing. Not wide enough for dry sand.
Wear much the same as any others.
They just dont look "macho" like the 33x15" sunrasier fats!
Mike

Been doing a bit of googling and found this interesting reading.


The Truth About 4WD Tyres

Ask five different 4 x 4 experts which is the best tyre and chances are you will get five different answers. Most likely it will be something like “Bridgecooper Sandcrunchers” or “Goodstone Rockwrestlers” or some other heavily advertised, high profile product.

Marketing and machismo plays a huge role in selling four wheel drive tyres just like marketing and guilt play the same role in selling tyres for passenger cars - “...a car skids, white knuckles claw the steering wheel and tyres compress against a wet road. The car stops inches from the terrified child clutching her doll. You have saved this childs life because you purchased Michelyear Lifesaver Tyres.”
diagram of tubeless and split rims
Tubeless or Split Rim

Once all vehicles were produced with split rims. Cheap to produce and easy to service no one considered putting anything else on their car. There were no options. The deserts and bush of countries like Africa, Australia and the US were opened up and fully explored on split rims and bias-ply tyres.

In 1985 Toyota released the venerable 75 series Landcruiser, one of the most successful working 4WDs ever released. It came out with grey split rims and 750R16 rubber – tall, skinny tyres sometimes referred to as “razor blades”. Before long every man and his dog had ripped this combination off and fitted 15 inch one piece rims and “Desert Duellers” – big fatties.

Everyone that is except the farmers and station owners and the mining industry and the army. They left the standard tyres and rims on their Landcruisers because they really use them for 4WD. They drive over rocks and sand and through rivers and over trees and on the worst corrugated gravel roads. Some of these vehicles spend their whole lives with four wheel drive engaged. True, part of the reason is the ability to resist and repair punctures. Split rims, with tubes as standard, are much easier to repair than one piece tubeless rims. Huge advantage if you are stuck in the middle of nowhere with 3 flat tyres
Fashion or Function

We're not saying that split rims and razor blades are the best solution for everyone. We're simply suggesting that most 4wd tyres are purchased because of trends and fashion rather than need “…and would you like raised white lettering or plain on those tyres Mr Smith?”

Desert trekkers, pastoralists, geologists, doggers (dingo trappers) and the army run split rims and bias-ply tyres so they can be self reliant in the middle of nowhere. Bias-ply or “rag” tyres have varying multiple plies designed with strength in mind rather than comfort. These plies run around the tyre sidewalls and have a generally heavier construction to resist staking. These people need to be able to avoid or repair 20 punctures a day without access to a tyre shop.

Today there is choice. Most 4WDs on the road today are fitted with tubeless rims and radial tyres and for most people a tubeless steel belted radial mounted on a tubeless rim will be the best compromise for 95 percent of 4WD activities. Steel plies beneath the tread supply good high speed highway strength while allowing the tyre to grip and mould reasonably well off road. Thin flexible sidewalls allow for the dissipation of heat and enable you to decrease tyre pressure and use your tyres as a kind of shock absorber on badly corrugated tracks. They will perform admirably on soft hungry beach sand, picking through rocky creek crossings or slipping around on muddy hills. The rest of this article will deal with this style of tyre.
Highway Terrain, All Terrain, Mud Terrain or perhaps Light Truck?

We spend most of our time driving and a large proportion of that time off road and off track. We travel heavy and cover lots of kilometres and wear out lots of tyres and we swap around between split rims and tubeless, depending on the situation.
three different styles of 4wd tyre

Here's a rough guide to tyre types

(H/T) Highway Terrain = 90% Road & 10% Off-Road

(A/T) All Terrain = 60% Road & 40% Off-Road

(M/T) Mud Terrain = 15% Road & 85% Off-Road

Any one of these three types of tyre will perform adequately in most 4 x 4 situations. Let me say that again in a different way. A properly maintained vehicle with correct tyre pressure and a reasonably proficient driver will be able to negotiate nearly all off-road situations. Basically a modern 4WD will go anywhere you can walk. If you are able to walk up a steep, snotty, slippery rock 500 metres upwards then chances are your 4WD can drive up it. And chances are that it won’t matter if your tyre is a Highway Terrain or Mud Terrain.

Having said that, if we never took the 4x4 off-road we would probably stick with a Highway tyre and gain a small increase in comfort and wet weather performance.

Likewise if the majority of our time was spent trailering the car to traction competitions or hill climbs we would go with the Muddy’s.

We choose to run All Terrain tyres because we find they are the best compromise between comfort and performance. Dirt can build up quickly in Highway tread and lose a bit of grip off-road, where Mud Terrain tyres can be noisy and fling rocks up, breaking mirrors etc. A/T’s are sturdy, run nicely on the highway and provide good grip off-road.

One other type of tyre often overlooked are light truck tyres which are made to take plenty of weight, generally offer fairly deep and open tread patterns, sturdy sidewalls and their durability can offer great bang for your buck. Sorry, no raised white lettering on the sidewalls.
Fat or Skinny?

A 4WD Troop Carrier we owned came to us with great big, fat, 13inch wide, all terrain, earth munching horrors. We pulled them off and sold them in about 7 seconds to someone who really wanted big fat tyres for the soft white Western Australian beaches. We were heading for the gnarly stakes and rocks of the Pilbara and Gascoyne and opted to revert back to split rims and tubes. We fitted new 235/85R16 tubeless tyres and ran them with tubes.

Basically a 235/85R16 tyre is about 8 inches wide. Well, we marched the new tyres down to the same white sandy Western Australian beach we had driven on the day before. Guess what? The new skinny tyres got up and running in third gear. The fat 13’s could only manage second gear the day before. The car turned easier, and didn’t wallow through the sand like a fat cow, but rather cut down to cooler, harder sand and just hummed along (cold sand tracks better than hot). The suspension reacted faster and the ride was a lot more relaxed and unlaboured. The guy who bought the fatty’s got a bargain. Raised white letters as well.

On deep sandy tracks wider tyres can be problematic, riding high up the wall of the ruts rather than cutting down to the compact tracks at the bottom. Likewise, picking through rocks and around tree stumps or branches. The sidewalls of tyres are a weak point and are vulnerable to staking. Narrower tyres are more agile and adept at driving around things that could cause a wide tyre trouble. Narrow tyres can generally keep more rubber on the ground because they spend less time trying to straddle obstacles. Driving on tyres that are too wide is an exercise in brute force. You wear yourself, your passengers and your vehicle out because you spend the day bouncing off things instead of driving around them.

We are currently running eight inch wide tyres on tubeless rims. Eight inches is the absolute maximum we travel on. It is a comfortable width on the road but still agile enough to dodge the nasty stuff.

And finally to debunk an old myth. Decreasing tyre pressure will aid any situation where your tyres are spinning and you need more traction, whether it is rocks, hills, mud, river crossings and most especially – hungry deep sand. You gain traction because the front to back footprint of your tyre increases as the tyre deflates and begins to act more like the tracks of a bulldozer. Not because your tyre gets wider. Bulldozers go anywhere and it's amazing where a 4WD will go with lowered tyre pressure. We have driven out of truly horrible places with as little as 8psi in each tyre. Normally dropping down to 22psi or so is enough to get you moving along and sometimes 18psi or even 12 psi is required. Driving out of a situation is generally the best way to recover any car.

Decreasing tyre pressure will also make any rutted, gutted, potholed, corrugated track twice as comfortable for you and your car. It usually means you are able to travel in a higher gear about 15km faster. Lower tyre pressures also minimize damage to tracks and bush.
Quality and Price

It is no surprise that building tyre factories and paying wages in Australia, Europe or the USA costs a heap more than making them in Malaysia, India and China. Likewise massive and sustained advertising campaigns are expensive and get financed every time someone buys a new tyre.

Just because a particular brand of tyre is made in Europe or America and costs 30 percent more than its nearest competitor doesn’t automatically make it the greatest tyre for you or us.

We currently run a big name American made tyre on tubeless rims. Our previous tyres were a lesser known brand made in China fitted to split rims. At this stage it looks like the Chinese tyre will do more kilometres than the USA tyre is going to. It is doing it more comfortably on bitumen, with a bit less body roll when cornering and seems to have a bit more bite in the dirt.

Nothing major but the American tyre costs $450 more for the set. I want an improvement if I’m going to pay $450 more. That doesn’t make the American tyre bad it just means the Chinese tyre was great value.

The quality of a tyre can be judged by the sum of its parts. Tyres are made of rubber. High speed race car style tyres are generally made from a soft compound that allows them to get tacky and hang onto the road. They also wear faster. Typically the rubber in an all terrain or mud terrain tyre will be firm enough that you shouldn’t have to worry about premature tyre wear. Check the tread depth of a new tyre. Deep tread and lots of rubber should equal lots of kilometres.

Look for a high ply count in the tread area. Tyres are made by a lamination process from steel and polyester belts. Each layer is called a ply and the more you have the more resistant the tyre is to punctures. I would avoid a radial tyre with less than 6 ply for regular off-road work and aim for something with 10 - 12.

Sidewall ply ratings are important also, although rarely discussed at the tyre shop or promoted by the manufacturers. Buying a tyre with more sidewall plies gives a stronger resistance to staking and can provide a slightly stiffer ride for really heavy vehicles.

Of course, strong sidewalls help to hold up that Big White Lettering.

Like I said in that other thread,,,,,,,,,,

"This all getting off the topic, I realise, but I stopped using split rims some years ago as I was getting just as many rips 'n flats with them as I was with tubeless fatties. Even more compelling is that years ago I was always readily able to get good 2nd hand 7.50/16 tubed tyres for split rims as mining companies always used 'em. But a few years back companies stopped using 'em and switched to tubeless for reasons of safety. So now it's almost impossible to get tyres for splits in the bush. Add to that, most tourists have tubeless fatties on and therefore there's practically no market in the bush for 7.50/16 tubed tyres. So nobody stocks 'em. So I switched back to fatties and just plug what I can and change out what I can't.

The safety reason from companies was that geos and the feild guys were tasked with fixing thier own punctures when in the bush. But they were getting too many back strains and even more, too many "blowoff" incidents where the locking ring wasn't seated correctly and came hurtling out and hitting people. They now carry two tubeless spares and set of repair plugs = "Less Accidents".

Plus I'm too lazy and cashed strapped to be buying two sets of rims and tyres and then having to change 'em every time I come back to civilization.


PS - they certainly don't blow tyres back on like I do!!!

A "cash strapped SFR", mate you should reconsider, come and have a jab at opal mining.
That will either put you on the pension proper or a million $!!!
Mike

Opal mining? No thanks. I've got too many EX - opal miners as mates over here who are now "gold miners". They reckon they're out of opals as no money in it anymore.

BFG's are still imported and manufactured in the states--biggest problem is supply let alone the price for the a/t ko.
Continental made in Europe,
Silverstones similar to the BFG made in malaysia and a very good all round tyre.

Just to name a few..
Kenda make a 12 ply tyre that will pop onto a solid steel rim--some worth considering and preety good longjevity--except in the pilbara.

regards
oneday

The only issue I have with these "million ply" tyres is getting the damn things on and off a rim if you REALLY did need to get one off. There's no flexiblity in the sidewalls and with wheel rims these days having huge safety beads on 'em, it's a backbreaking nightmare to get 'em off.

Nissan's MUST be taken off 'backwards" or you'll still be struggling when hell freezes over. And that's with a piddling 4 ply city tyre.

BFG a/t 265/75 R16's. 25 to 30psi in the bush, 40 to 50psi on the tar depending what I'm towing. No problems.

cat u must have reverse rims--normally they go on one way--u must have special ali mags--i'm lost--
with the splits - they arent too bad..

A few tyres have 3 ply sidewalls--generally they are flexible..u might want to invest with a bead cheater--not the old fashion bead breaker on a long pole..

regards
oneday

Breaking a bead is the easiest bit of all,,,,,,,,,,I use a kangoo jack under the tow bar with the foot of the jack right on the tyre/rim joint. Breaks easy as,,,,,,,

Then getting the first bead off is easy, but getting the last bead off and thus getting the tyre completely off is PIA of the highest order if done in the wrong order. Take the wrong bead of first and you'll be there all week trying to get the tyre off the rim.

have a go with this little gadget--
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another fail safe way to get the bead of easily is to have the tyres reseated and ballanced by your tyre shop prior to goin bush especially tyres that have been on ya vehicle for over 12 months and u have gone through wet areas.
regards
oneday

Hi All,

That's another bloody thing i have to buy, a full set of 16"x7", i have the fats on now but we will be using the split rims out bush, at least i will be able to repair them myself

I recently brought some of those cross patches from tip-top and repaired some huge gashes in the side walls as recommended but dependant on the size of patch used, i have had two trips to Cue and back to Binningup ...no probs..each to their own i guess!!

Ron

Ray,

Yep, I've seen those tyre pliers and they are good. But they fail one very important criteria that I have for the things I take in the bush. That is, wherever possible, each item must be able to be used for at least two purposes. I can't see the tyre pliers doing this - good though they are.

Ya see, my kangoo jack does several jobs. It jacks the truck up, obviously, but it also breaks tyre beads, makes a latte, fries eggs and is a useful mozzie repellant. So it does many jobs not just one.

Thus are the tyre pliers just another thing I have to lug around as it can't do anything else but break beads.

Yep split rims & 13 ply or whatever you can scrape up for free from the mine tyre tip if your lucky enough to live near one ,i stacked up 12 mitchy 13 ply 750 16s in the shed , still gotta few left after 10 years , they bin them at some places if the side walls have cuts , just put a truck patch inside & good as gold ... The biggest dramma with this option is if you decide to hit the beach like i did at cable beach on the way south after a 3 month session at Halls Ck & let the presures down to 15 psi on the beach & they build heat & the patches let go & chaffe the tubes out about 100 or 200 kays of lonely highway. Also as far as bead breakers go , i used the side of my pick with a good hammer for a while , works well, then i got sofisticated & bought the cam action tyre lever . Forget the threaded type, as the one i bought for $160 sheared the roll pin after 2 goes & nbg and left me in the sht, not an expert but i can bring many miss adventures & trials to the table, cheers albo.

Oyea also in regards to my above post , yous probly think im a stingy old bugger, but like my accountant says .... savings in consumables go straight to profits!

     i use my kangaroo jack under the draw bar to break the beads also but made up a little foot to go on the bottom ,so at the crucial moment it doesn't slide off the side .works well for me .i run toyo lite truck 10 ply on my rodeo ute, quad on the back and towing a 15 foot van getting really good k,s on and off.only problem i have had is getting patches to adhere on the inside side wall of toyos.    anyone else have this problem .put a couple of pics of the foot for anyone wanting to see what it is.  
      Lindsay  
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from a safety point of view--we never repair a side wall fracture coz of the high amount of flex on the wall.
Never put a tyre that u may have repaired a side wall on the front right-if it lets go u will kill someone or even yaself.

If u r using splits then just opt for the after market breeds rather than toyo, bridgys, etc--remember they are all black and round.
Linglong bring out a reliable tyre.

If u split the sidewall--ditch the tyre.
Be Safe--play safe.

regards
oneday

oneday
not talking about sidewall splits but the pain in the ar*e small rock or stick spike .when you use up both spares ya have to do something to get back to where you can get replacements
happy days Lindsay

Hi Lindsay--"the inside side wall of toyos"
sorry mate that sounds like the side wall to me..
To get any patch to adhere-u have to scrub the inside of the tyre with a buff and use some solvent to remove the silcone layer inside the tyre..unless y clean that film off --nothing will stick..the only other thing u can use to get out of the poo is to use a series of plugs--the push pull type..

hope I got it right.

regards
oneday